THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP HOST: JOHN MCLAUGHLIN PANEL: PATRICK BUCHANAN, MSNBC; ELEANOR CLIFT, NEWSWEEK; MONICA CROWLEY, WASHINGTON TIMES; LARRY LUXNER, CUBANEWS TAPED: FRIDAY, APRIL 22, 2011 BROADCAST: WEEKEND OF APRIL 23-24, 2011
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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue One: Latino Rising.
NICHOLAS JONES (U.S. Census Bureau): (From videotape.) The Hispanic population crossed the 50 million mark in 2010, and people of Hispanic origin now clearly represent the second-largest group in the country.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The United States is currently populated by 310 million residents. Fifty million of the 310 million are Hispanic -- 16 percent of the entire U.S. population. Latinos, or Hispanics -- we use these terms interchangeably -- are now the largest demographic group in the country, exceeded only by the white population. So says the U.S. Census Bureau in the decennial 2010 U.S. Census now being reported on, which, by the way, has already cost the American taxpayer $14 billion.
Here are a few Census factoids.
Item: Population growth. U.S. residents grew by 27 million over the last 10 years. More than half of that growth, by the way, is Hispanic -- 15 million.
Item: Hispanic adults. One in every six adults is Hispanic.
Item: Hispanic children. One in every four is Hispanic.
Item: Public-school students. Fifty percent of the public- school students in Texas and California are Latino.
And there's more to the Latino story.
ARTURO VARGAS (NALEO): (From videotape.) I think the story of the 2010 Census is the rise of the Latino South.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: In six states of the U.S. South, the Latino population in 10 years roughly doubled: Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia. The Hispanic population has also had big gains in midwestern states: Montana, 58 percent; Nebraska, 77 percent; Missouri, 79 percent.
Question: What accounts for the high level of growth of the Hispanic population? Is it primarily birthrates, or is it primarily immigration? Pat.
MR. BUCHANAN: It's both, John. Even the illegal aliens who come to this country, they have 300 (thousand) to 400,000 anchor babies every year in the United States who are now automatic citizens. The immigrants, Hispanic immigrants, have a higher birthrate. And, of course, you've got immigration as well.
John, one thing that's important, though. Even though they're 16 percent of the population, they were only 7.4 percent of the vote in 2008, whereas whites were 74 percent. But there's no doubt about it. The Hispanics are getting more and more politically active.
And quite frankly, I think we're reaching a tipping point in this country where the Republican Party is going to be unable to win a presidential election. And that will come when Hispanics become basically the swing vote that swings the states of Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and finally Texas into the Democrat ranks. And when Texas goes, quite frankly, Republicans won't be able to win the White House.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor. MS. CLIFT: Well, first of all, I don't think Hispanics are automatically Democratic. I think President George W. Bush did very well with Hispanics. I think he won 44 percent of them.
MR. BUCHANAN: Forty.
MS. CLIFT: Forty percent. So I don't think you can naturally assume that the Republican Party isn't going to get smart and start to figure out how to talk to this new emerging population.
I think what the Census figures told us is that the change in this country is accelerating, that it's happening faster than we thought. I think we become a majority-minority country now in 2040, which is about 10 years earlier than we thought. And I think there is a nostalgia among older white voters -- and I think Pat speaks for them --
MR. BUCHANAN: (Laughs.)
MS. CLIFT: -- for the country as they knew it. And I think -- so there's some unease with these changes. But if we look at it through a political lens, there's great opportunity here, especially for the Democrats, who do speak to Hispanics and have been -- have not fallen into the trap that Republicans have of all of this -- you know, using phrases like anchor babies, for one, is not language that's amenable or friendly towards the emerging population.
MS. CROWLEY: This kind of --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you know where Hispanics are coming from?
MR. BUCHANAN: Mexico.
MS. CROWLEY: From Latin America, from Mexico, up through Mexico, but all through Central and South America. But this kind of explosive demographic growth among Hispanics in the United States is going to be the political football for the next decade-plus, because it is going to be the voting bloc that both sides are really going to fight for, as they should, because when you look at the black vote, that is essentially a monolithic Democratic vote. But the Hispanic vote is less monolithic than the black vote is.
Barack Obama did win about two thirds of the Hispanic vote in 2008, but those poll numbers now are starting to soften, not just toward Obama, but also toward the Democratic Party. And when you look at Hispanics generally in the United States, they do tend to be more culturally conservative -- values of hard work and faith and family. Those are the kinds of things that the Republicans really need to put extra effort into, speaking to the Hispanic community, saying, "Your values are our values, and here's why."
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Welcome, Larry. MR. LUXNER: Thank you.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you have any comments on anything you've heard here so far?
MR. LUXNER: Yes.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want to agree or disagree?
MR. LUXNER: It's true that the Hispanic community is not as monolithic as the black community, but I think you have to look at also aspects of the Hispanic community which have nothing in common with each other. Puerto Ricans in New York have almost nothing in common, outside of common language, with Cubans in Miami. Politically, Cubans in Miami, as we all know -- I'm from Miami, grew up there, and we all know that Cubans in Miami have tended to vote Republican in just about every election.
Dominicans in New York, Mexicans in Texas, California -- South Americans also come here -- vote very differently, if they do vote. And, of course, Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, so immigration is not an issue at all for Puerto Ricans, as it is not for Cubans, since, under the Cuban Adjustment Act, Cubans can come here and stay pretty much legally and do not have to go through the hoops that other Latinos have to go through.
MR. BUCHANAN: But let me talk about the Mexican-Americans and all except for the Cubans. These folks, by and large, are poor, working class, lower middle class. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no taxes, but they get an enormous bounty of benefits. You get food stamps. You get rent supplements. You get Medicare. You get free education. So Hispanics, especially Mexicans in the Southwest, are much more acclimated. They are big-government people.
MS. CLIFT: I'm not going to let --
MR. BUCHANAN: They believe in government, and they're going to vote the government party. They vote it between 60 percent and 70 percent in every election. MS. CLIFT: I'm not going to let Pat get away with that statement that 47 percent of the people don't pay taxes. They don't pay income taxes because they don't make sufficient income. They pay sales taxes. They pay Social Security. They pay lots of other things. They're not freeloaders in this country, Pat.
And this is a country of immigrants, and this is a new immigrant stream. And I think they're doing quite well getting acclimated. And I think, because of their numbers, the burden is going to be on us to do a little acclimation here as well.
MS. CROWLEY: The distinction is, though, between legal and illegal immigration. And those Hispanics who have come to the United States legally do assimilate. Those who cross the border or come in otherwise illegally don't necessarily do that and tend to siphon themselves off. And that's the problem.
MS. CLIFT: They're trying hard to assimilate. (Laughs.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you agree with that? Does Luxner agree with that?
MR. LUXNER: I agree with you. They do try hard.
MR. BUCHANAN: They work hard.
MR. LUXNER: Yes. The parents maybe don't learn English. That's true. But the younger generations do. And in many cases they've done better than even white American U.S.-born. And that is particularly true in Dade County.
MR. BUCHANAN: Take John McCain. John McCain was pro-amnesty, pro-immigration, pro anything you can name. He got 31 or 32 percent of the Hispanic vote.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exit question --
MR. BUCHANAN: He got clobbered.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exit question --
MS. CLIFT: He walked away from all those views.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Will the growing Hispanic population assimilate as readily into the American melting pot as earlier immigrant waves, like the Irish and the Italians did? Yes or no.
MR. BUCHANAN: It took the Irish almost 100 years to do it, John. I think it's going to be more slowly because the culture --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You do?
MR. BUCHANAN: -- is much more different. Yes, I do. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Even though the United States today is --
MR. BUCHANAN: The United States is --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- multiracial?
MR. BUCHANAN: People are moving into enclaves, John, by race and ethnicity, all over this country.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: "Irish need not apply" was the sign in the window when this nation was dominantly what, U.K.-settled?
MR. BUCHANAN: No, this was dominantly British in this country.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Dominantly British.
MR. BUCHANAN: British --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: It's not dominantly British.
MR. BUCHANAN: But it took -- John, it took generations before the Irish were fully assimilated.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Because of the setting into which they came. The setting today is different.
MR. BUCHANAN: John, take a look at --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: It's multicultural. It's multilingual.
MR. BUCHANAN: Look, John, you've got a multicultural --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor.
MR. BUCHANAN: Go ahead.
MS. CLIFT: Yeah. I don't think the wave of the future is racial and ethnic enclaves in this country. I think people are and will assimilate. But I also think a lot more Americans are going to learn to speak Spanish, and I think that's a fine thing.
MS. CROWLEY: Again, I get back to the distinction between legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants that come from Central and South America assimilate. They're so grateful to be in the United States. They exercise their right to vote.
The illegal immigrants -- and we've seen this over the past couple of months; actually past couple of years -- any time there's a big demonstration in California or in the Southwest on behalf of illegal immigrants, they're all hoisting the Mexican flag or the El Salvadoran flag. There's less of an assimilation impulse among the illegals than there are among the legal -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Larry.
MR. LUXNER: I don't agree.
MS. CLIFT: I don't see a lot of illegals marching.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Don't agree with whom?
MS. CROWLEY: Yes, of course. Of course they are.
MR. LUXNER: No, I think they will assimilate much more quickly. This is the age of Facebook. It's the age of Twitter. You're forgetting this is the 21st century.
MS. CROWLEY: Then they should have been doing it legally, right?
MR. LUXNER: This is the 21st century.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The setting is different.
MR. LUXNER: Of course it's different. This is not 100 years ago.
MS. CLIFT: Exactly. And we're not --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Also we've got a president whose two daughters speak, pretty well, Spanish.
MR. LUXNER: And more Americans speak Spanish than ever before, and I mean non-Latino Americans.
MS. CLIFT: And we're not going to export 11 million people.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue Two: Patronage to Partnership.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: (From videotape.) The world must now recognize Latin America for the dynamic and growing region that it truly is. We are all Americans. Todos somos Americanos.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: President Obama last month visited with heads of state on his Latin American trip, notably Dilma Rousseff of Brazil and Sebastian Pinera of Chile. When Mr. Obama was in Chile, he delivered a major address to the Latin American world. Mr. Obama praised the region for reversing its dictatorial past, defined by authoritarians like Augusto Pinochet of Chile and Alberto Fujimori of Peru. PRESIDENT OBAMA: (From videotape.) Virtually all the people of Latin America have gone from living under dictatorships to living in democracies. Across the region, we see vibrant democracies, from Mexico to Chile to Costa Rica.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The president also praised the region for its economic reforms.
PRESIDENT OBAMA: (From videotape.) Having made tough but necessary reforms, nations like Peru and Brazil are seeing impressive growth.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And growth going into the future.
Item: Economic projection, 2011, 4.5 percent growth; 2012, 4.6 percent growth. This makes Latin America a strong market of, of course, U.S. goods.
Item: History of consumption. Latin America is the U.S.'s fastest-growing trade partner. Between 1998 and 2009, an 11-year period, trade nearly doubled, up 82 percent.
Item: Jobs. U.S. exports to the region are projected to support more than 2 million jobs here in the U.S. All of this signals, of course, the region's rising influence globally.
PRESIDENT OBAMA: (From videotape.) Countries like Chile and Brazil, they're now players on the international stage. And so our interaction is one of equal partners trying to solve problems, both in this hemisphere but also around the world.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Question: Will the free trade agreement with Colombia help or hurt Obama's re-election prospects? Larry Luxner.
MR. LUXNER: Absolutely. I think it will help Obama's re- election prospects. President Obama has made a stated objective of doubling United States exports in the next five years, and Latin America is one of the strongest areas of growth in the world right now. Colombia is the second-largest country in Latin America -- in South American population, 45 million consumers. And we don't have a free trade agreement with Colombia.
MR. BUCHANAN: The problem, Larry, with what you're saying is that imports are growing faster than exports. Our trade deficit has gone from last year's $500 billion, now running at $550 billion.
MR. LUXNER: Yes, but --
MR. BUCHANAN: Imports are killing jobs faster than exports are creating them.
MR. LUXNER: That may be, but the United States is losing out because we don't have free trade with Colombia, which -- as a result of which, other countries like China can move right in and take that market share from the United States.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What about that, Pat?
MR. BUCHANAN: All right, how big a market -- how big an economy is Colombia? It's probably, what, 2-3 percent of the United States?
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: How big is China in Latin America? Big, big.
MR. BUCHANAN: Well, they're enormously big, but try to get into China's market with your goods.
MR. LUXNER: That's beside the point. The United States --
MR. BUCHANAN: It's not beside the point.
MR. LUXNER: It is when it comes to Latin America, because those people are going to buy. They need goods. China -- Colombia right now can export duty-free to the United States, but we cannot export duty-free to Colombia. So this agreement helps the United States in a way more than it helps Colombia. We're punishing ourselves by not having a free trade agreement.
MR. BUCHANAN: We're getting access to these tiny markets, and these markets are getting access to the largest market in the world --
MR. LUXNER: Colombia is not a tiny market.
MR. BUCHANAN: -- which is ours.
MS. CROWLEY: But it's --
MS. CLIFT: Yeah. In the new America that we talked about in the earlier segment, Latin America is going to have much more profound impact on this country culturally and economically, in the same way that Europe defined us when the immigrants were from Poland and the way our politics define us with Israel.
Latin America is going to have a greater voice in our politics because they're going to be a bigger part of our economics as well.
MS. CROWLEY: Yes, absolutely right. I mean, the Colombia free trade agreement is important not just economically, but strategically as well. Colombia is a great ally of the United States. It's a shame that this free trade pact was languishing in the Senate as long as it was. Now there's some real movement on it, and thank goodness.
There's another outstanding trade agreement, though, that should be moved on, like the Colombia one is, and that's the Panama free trade agreement as well. But you're absolutely right about China. China -- and Hugo Chavez is playing a central role in this; Hugo Chavez reaching to the Chinese and to the Iranians and to the Russians. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Can you --
MS. CROWLEY: Their influence now is growing in Latin and South America.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Can you specify what -- excuse me. Am I in here? Can I --
MS. CROWLEY: Go ahead. You're fine.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What is China precisely doing? Isn't it building that railroad that's supposed to compete with the Panama Canal? Hasn't it proposed that? Doesn't it also want a port just south of Rio de Janeiro?
MR. LUXNER: Well, let's separate the two issues if we can. In the case that you mentioned, Panama, which is a good point, because, unlike Colombia, Panama is a service economy. It does not have the labor issues. It doesn't have the baggage. It doesn't have the leftist uprising. It doesn't have the paramilitary, the murders of trade unionists. It doesn't have any of that baggage that Colombia has.
There's no good reason for the United States not to have free trade with Panama. In keeping with that, the Panama Canal is in the midst of something like a $10 billion expansion right now. China is key to that expansion. The United States will lose out if we don't have --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: They also want to build a railroad across Colombia --
MR. BUCHANAN: Exactly -- 165 --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- to compete with the Panama Canal, connecting the two bodies of water.
MR. BUCHANAN: One-hundred-and-sixty-five-mile railroad, John.
MR. LUXNER: That's a land route, yes. That's called --
MR. BUCHANAN: It's a land route. But let me say this. China stepped in when Hugo Chavez was in trouble and gave him $20 billion. Where's China getting all these billions of dollars it's investing in resources in Latin America, Australia, all over the world? From us at Wal-Mart, because their goods are pouring into this country. They sell seven times as much to us as we sell to them.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Whose fault is that?
MR. LUXNER: Well, the United States, in a way, has neglected Latin America for many years.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. LUXNER: We didn't pay attention to what was going on, which is why what you say is correct. China has -- and not just China -- India has also signed trade agreements with Brazil. Many Latin American countries have established embassies in India because India is also growing --
MS. CLIFT: China --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I want to commend you on -- I want to commend you on the CubaNews, which -- this is your newsletter -- and also on The Diplomat --
MR. LUXNER: Thank you.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- which is getting increasingly -- of course, it's always been popular, but everybody talks about it in the diplomatic community. Alan Gross, sentenced to 15 years, and he may sue his ex-employer. Who's Alan Gross?
MR. LUXNER: Alan Gross is a subcontractor for the U.S. Agency for International Development.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Why has he been jailed in Cuba?
MR. LUXNER: Well, that's a good question. Alan Gross was jailed supposedly under the Cuban government for interfering in state affairs.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Jimmy Carter just got back from Cuba.
MR. LUXNER: Yes.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: He tried to get Alan Gross released and he was rejected outright.
MR. LUXNER: I think Jimmy Carter made the point before he went down there that it was not his objective. He would try, but he didn't expect to come back with Alan Gross.
MR. BUCHANAN: Wasn't he trying to give communications equipment and things like that to the Cubans --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: He had a -- MR. BUCHANAN: -- so he could communicate with the Americans?
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No, he wanted to give it to the Jewish community there so that they could communicate.
MR. LUXNER: Well --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And he had a contract with AID. He was an independent --
MS. CLIFT: He's being accused of spying, basically.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I know he has.
MR. LUXNER: Actually, he's not being accused of spying. Nobody in Cuba thinks he's a spy. He's been accused of interfering and helping to destabilize the regime. There's a difference. Spying carries the death penalty.
MS. CLIFT: I see.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Also, keep in mind that the Cuban government really doesn't care what he does with the Jewish community. There are maybe 600 to 1,000 Jews in Cuba. He doesn't care about that. What they're concerned --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think the United States is wise in maintaining Cuba, along with Iran, Sudan and Syria, as a state sponsor of terrorism?
MR. LUXNER: Absolutely not. There is no good reason for Cuba to be on that terrorist list.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you agree with that?
MR. BUCHANAN: I tend to agree we ought to lift the embargo.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Not the embargo. This is the classification.
MR. BUCHANAN: I don't know of any --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism.
MR. BUCHANAN: Cuba has done a lot of spying here, but I don't know of any recent acts of terror against the United States.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want to lift the embargo in its complete --
MR. BUCHANAN: I would start lifting the embargo. I would get some prisoners released in exchange and some benefits for us. But I would lift it, yeah. MS. CLIFT: Yeah. I would too. I mean, the notion that this island 90 miles from our shore, that we're keeping this boot on it while everybody else is in there and investing, it --
MR. LUXNER: And even more, the fact that you have -- North Korea was taken off that list. Libya was taken off that list. What does Cuba have in common with Iran, Syria and Sudan?
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: It's really quite ridiculous.
MR. BUCHANAN: Florida politics. Florida politics.
MS. CROWLEY: Yeah. I mean, at this point -- at this point, to have Cuba on the terrorism list is really irrelevant.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: It's a slap in the face to us.
MS. CROWLEY: And it's probably inappropriate and should be changed. But in terms of the embargo, 17 years ago President Nixon, shortly before he died, he was the highest-ranking American who called for the rolling back of the embargo. "Lift the embargo." Why? Because he believed -- and it's the same philosophy as the approach to China, which is if there's economic liberalization, that eventually will lead to the desire --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exit question --
MS. CROWLEY: -- the desire for political liberalization.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What phrase best describes the level of importance of Mr. Obama's Latin American diplomacy? A routine goodwill tour? This is when he visited Latin America recently, Pat, to refresh your recollection, because I know that's fading a little.
MR. BUCHANAN: Brazil and Chile, right. (Laughs.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Or was it of strategic importance?
MR. BUCHANAN: It was basically business as usual. I think he's got to maintain a hand in there. He went down there to do so.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Pat, China's in there. Don't you understand?
MR. BUCHANAN: And you think his dropping in one day is going to change --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No, but --
MR. BUCHANAN: -- these kinds of strategic relationships?
MS. CLIFT: It's about winning the future, to use his phrase. And a lot of people watched his trip on Univision, and so it has political impact. But it will also have growing economic impact as we move forward.
MS. CROWLEY: Well, this administration had better be a lot more engaged in Latin America, because Chinese have a long head start in being engaged, not just economically but, again, strategically -- Hugo Chavez, Iran and Russia.
MR. LUXNER: I think it's important and very strategically important. And look at the countries he didn't visit; for example, Argentina. They were miffed because he didn't go to Argentina. That ought to tell us how important this trip was.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue Three: Secret Weapon.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): (From videotape.) The problem -- I just got elected three months ago. And so how can I be a full-time United States senator if my eye is already on running for something else? Yeah, I'm not running for president in 2012.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Florida Republican brand-new freshman Senator Marco Rubio says no for 2012. But many Republicans are hoping he says yes. Observers believe the Cuban-American Republican from Miami can break the Democratic chokehold on Latino voters, either as the vice presidential or even presidential candidate on the Republican 2012 ticket.
Democratic `08 presidential candidate Barack Obama garnered 67 percent of the Latino vote; Republican `08 presidential candidate John McCain 32 percent. Obama is president today.
Question: What's the GOP's best hope of being able to compete for Hispanic votes in the future? Eleanor.
MS. CLIFT: I think they have to learn how to relate to the entire Hispanic community or else they are going to be destined to be a minority party. But looking short term to 2012, everybody's going to think about putting an Hispanic in the number two slot. In addition to Marco Rubio, you have the governor of New Mexico, Susana Martinez, who will also be mentioned. So that kind of --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And a third governor.
MS. CLIFT: -- symbolic politics doesn't automatically work.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The third governor is Sandoval of Nevada. Is that right?
MS. CLIFT: (Inaudible.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let me make this point -- Sandoval of Nevada. Can you speak to him? MS. CLIFT: The governor of Nevada is another -- well, he's also Hispanic and he's a Republican. But that kind of --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: (Inaudible.)
MS. CLIFT: -- politics, you know, doesn't automatically work. I mean, I keep going back to Geraldine Ferraro, who we lost recently. When Walter Mondale put her on the ticket, he thought women would flock to the ticket. Ronald Reagan won women that year. So I think it's not just about a new face. It's got to be about a change in tone and attitude towards this entire population.
MS. CROWLEY: Well, it's got to be -- the Republicans really have got to get their acts together and put in an effort to speaking to the Hispanic population in the United States if they're going to have any hope of reaching them and getting their votes, and that is, they talk to them about similar values -- self-reliance, independence from the government -- in other words, not being dependent on the government -- faith and family.
Remember, they're very socially conservative. In California, when the gay-marriage proposition came up last time, the two blocs that defeated that proposition were African-Americans and Hispanics. So the Republicans actually do have the momentum behind them in terms of ideology, philosophy and values, but they need to be able to make their case.
MR. BUCHANAN: Well, let me tell you --
MS. CROWLEY: And they haven't done it quite so far.
MR. BUCHANAN: In California --
MS. CROWLEY: But Marco Rubio is a great spokesman for it.
MR. BUCHANAN: But what happened in California -- you're exactly right -- Hispanics voted more than 50 percent against gay marriage. African-Americans voted 70 percent against gay marriage. Then African-Americans voted 95 percent for Obama. (Laughs.) Hispanics voted 70 percent for Obama.
MS. CLIFT: It's about economics.
MR. LUXNER: Just because --
MR. BUCHANAN: They can agree with us on social, culture and moral issues, and they vote their political interests -- economic interests, they vote Democratic.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Go ahead, Larry.
MR. LUXNER: And, in fact, Rubio has come out very much in favor of the Arizona immigration bill. I think if, you know, Republicans want to get the Hispanic vote, they have to talk about immigration reform in a way that's going to appeal to Hispanics.
MR. BUCHANAN: Let me ask you, Larry --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: How is that?
MR. BUCHANAN: -- how are we supposed to make 20 million illegal aliens legal?
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You mean the DREAM act?
MR. LUXNER: Yes. I mean -- yes.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What's the DREAM act?
MR. LUXNER: The DREAM act, which allows children of people who came here illegally, if they're in the military or college, to stay here legally and have a real future.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. BUCHANAN: But let me ask you this --
MS. CLIFT: These are people who were essentially born here and who are Americans in every way --
MR. LUXNER: Yes. Marco --
MS. CLIFT: -- except that little line --
MR. LUXNER: Exactly.
MS. CLIFT: -- on the piece of paper.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: So it's a path to citizenship.
MR. LUXNER: And Marco Rubio -- Marco Rubio is a Cuban-American, second generation, born in Miami. So --
MR. BUCHANAN: OK. But take a look at the map. If you make them all, let's say, 20 million illegal aliens, make them all legal, those folks, first-time voters, go some cases 90 to 10 Democratic. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I've got a quick question.
MR. BUCHANAN: You're increasing the Democratic electorate.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I've got a quick question for you.
MS. CLIFT: So that's your position? (Laughs.) That's not --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: If you look at the planet, you can see it as a --
MS. CLIFT: Not very humanistic, Pat.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- as a series of continents. You can see it as a cluster of countries. And you can also see it, as I think Obama is -- I'd like a judgment call on this -- I think Obama is beginning to look at the planet hemispherically, and we have a hemisphere here. And I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls Canada and he increases that sense -- do you sense any of that going on?
MR. BUCHANAN: I think Barack Obama is our first president who's got one foot in the south, if you will -- I mean hemispherically --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Quickly.
MR. BUCHANAN: -- the southern hemisphere -- and one foot in the north. He's the first one we've got.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You like that.
MR. BUCHANAN: No, I just -- (laughs) -- I just say --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You like that.
MR. BUCHANAN: It's reality.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Out of time. Happy Easter. Bye-bye. Adios.