THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP
HOST: JOHN MCLAUGHLIN
JOINED BY: TONY BLANKLEY, ELEANOR CLIFT,
ARIANNA STASSINOPOULOS HUFFINGTON, AND MORTIMER ZUCKERMAN
TAPED FRIDAY, JULY 30, 1999
AIRED THE WEEKEND OF JULY 31-AUGUST 1, 1999
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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue one: Summit in Sarajevo.
U.S. PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: (From videotape.) It is time to build the peace. The war is over, but we have to build a better peace, for Bosnia and all the people of Southeastern Europe.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Some 40 world leaders gathered in Bosnia this week to launch the Balkans Stability Pact. It is a plan to bring economic and political reform to a region that has suffered in the last decade an unending series of violent ethnic wars.
But many of the conference participants are primarily concerned about rebuilding the damage done by NATO bombing. One such diplomat is Russian Prime Minister Sergei Stepashin, who is returning from a week-long trip to the United States. In Washington, Mr. Stepashin stressed the need for financial aid not only for Kosovo but for Serbia proper as well. (Quoting from Stepashin's speech at the National Press Club.) "There are 10 million people in Yugoslavia. It is summer now, and people are getting by. But when the winter sets in, there will be a humanitarian catastrophe in the very heart of Europe. There are no roads. Businesses have been destroyed. There is no gas supply, no water supply in many areas of the country."
Despite this impending catastrophe, the White House is linking its reconstruction aid exclusively to the removal of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: (From videotape.) But I do not believe that we should give reconstruction aid to Serbia as long as it rejects democracy and as long as Mr. Milosevic is in power.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Question: Is it moral to condition aid on the ouster of Milosevic, Arianna?
MS. HUFFINGTON: It's completely immoral because the people we are punishing are children, the elderly, the sick, people who can do nothing to remove Milosevic.
On top of it, it's particularly immoral when you see what's happening to Serbs in Kosovo, when we have -- 150,000 Serbs have been ethnically cleansed from Kosovo. We have lootings, rapes, burnings, killings. And these are the people that we promised to protect during the negotiations that followed the end of the bombings -- so, absolutely immoral. And there's no --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: This is at the hands of the KLA and also on the hands -- at the hands of Albanian citizens?
MS. HUFFINGTON: Right.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor?
MS. CLIFT: There's a difference between humanitarian aid and reconstruction aid, and the West, and the U.S., is committed to providing humanitarian aid to ease suffering. But to completely alleviate hardship would remove any motivation to overthrow Milosevic. And the goal of the policy of the West is not to punish the Serbian people, but it is to remove a dictator, and all of the momentum is in that direction, including from the church leaders, John.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think George Marshall would feel as Eleanor does, after World War II when it was necessary to feed the Germans and rebuild Germany?
MR. BLANKLEY: Well, Marshall had a plan for -- you know, the Marshall Plan, under his name, was for rebuilding Europe. Humanitarian aid was given to the Germans immediately after the war, in the rubble of the bombing. They were given a minimum amount of food and water to survive. And the same instinct is here. We're going to give a minimum of humanitarian aid to the Serbs, but what we're talking about is whether we should be giving reconstruction aid. This is a big project. People want to learn a lesson from Bosnia, where we didn't invest enough in the super-structure. These are billions of dollars to a nation that was led by a very bad man. So I don't think we have any obligation to go beyond humanitarian aid.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The problem with humanitarian aid is that the floor is too low.
MR. BLANKLEY: Well, I mean, you can go --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You're going to be killing innocent civilians, and that is immoral.
MR. BLANKLEY: No. Properly designed, humanitarian aid should assure that people don't die for want of necessities.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think this president will properly design it, when he said "not one red cent," in that tone of voice --
MR. BLANKLEY: No, I don't --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- not one red cent for reconstruction? Don't you think that that floor is going to be exceedingly low? What do you think about that?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Well, that is undoubtedly true, but let me put it this way: If Germany had still been led by Hitler at the end of World War II, we would not have been providing aid to Germany. There is always a classic problem with sanctions, which is that the people who get hurt are not the leaders, who manage to eat well and live well. But how do you put political pressure on them for change in those countries? And that's the cost that's involved. Milosevic has been the cause of all of the troubles in the Balkans for the last 10 years.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The Yugoslav people can no more remove the lawless Milosevic than the United States Senate could remove the lawless Clinton.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Well, it's an interesting analogy. (Laughter.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, as your analogy is of Hitler to Milosevic.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: No, no, no, no.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want to speak to this?
MS. HUFFINGTON: Yes, because a better analogy is that you had the strongest military alliance in the world, and it could not remove Milosevic, so do they expect the impoverished people of Yugoslavia to do it? It may happen, but it's going to be very hard.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Oh, that wasn't the policy.
MS. CLIFT: The American people did not want to remove President Clinton. I mean, that was a political effort. What's going on --
MR. BLANKLEY: Not all of them; some of them did. (Laughter.)
MS. CLIFT: Well, the majority. What's going on --
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Our policy was not to remove Milosevic, our policy, our military objective, no more than it was, apparently, to remove Saddam Hussein, which I believe we should have done.
MS. HUFFINGTON: Our policy was to bring peace to Kosovo.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Our pounding, our pummeling, our near-saturation bombing for 78 days of Serbia proper was inherently and intrinsically immoral. Now we're compounding more immorality on top of it by denying the citizens there the relief that they need.
Exit: On a probability scale of zero to 10 -- zero probability -- 10 meaning metaphysical certitude -- how probable is it that Milosevic will be removed from power before the onset of winter, which is technically December 21? I ask you, Arianna.
MS. HUFFINGTON: No more than three.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Three.
What do you think?
MS. CLIFT: I am going to give it a seven.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think?
MR. BLANKLEY: I think about a five; it could go either way.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Yeah. I think it will only be after the winter that he is removed. I'd give it a two.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, there have been key defections from the military. And I think that he will probably be deposed. And I'll say a six, before winter.
When we come back, Rudy Giuliani, mayor of New York, visits Little Rock to make fun of Hillary, Queen of the Carpetbaggers.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue two: Wesley, we hardly knew ye.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: (From videotape.) NATO has achieved a success as a united alliance, ably led by Secretary General Solana and General Clark.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Fewer than two months after winning the war in Kosovo, General Wesley Clark is now out of job. The four-star general and NATO supreme allied commander has had his tour of duty cut short. According to the White House, this is just a bureaucratic shuffle.
JOE LOCKHART (White House spokesperson): (From videotape.) Because of an idiosyncrasy in the way the Pentagon works, General Ralston, who is the choice to replace General Clark, was finishing his term at the Joint Chiefs as the number two there and needed to move from one job to the other in order to avoid having to face some retirement issues.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That's one explanation.
In any event, this major move caught many Washington insiders by surprise, Clark himself included.
But Clark has been a controversial figure. In '94, he was caught in a diplomatic gaffe when he met with brutal Serb war criminal Ratko Mladic, despite a State Department directive. Clark exchanged gifts with the barbaric Serb commander and was even photographed exchanging caps with Mladic.
Many of Clark's fellow Army generals are suspicious of Clark's repeated promotions. He was one of the fastest-rising stars in the Army. Clark, a Little Rock native and FOB, friend of Bill's, studied at Oxford, both having been Rhodes scholars.
What is most troubling about Clark is what many critics see as Clark's unrestrained belligerence. He wanted to send bombers to downtown Belgrade the first night of the bombing. And in a meeting with congressmen visiting the Balkans early in the war, Clark was shockingly ruthless. "If the Russians move ships into the Adriatic Combat Zone to try to impede the NATO oil embargo then under discussion," said Clark, "we should bomb the Russians."
Question: Is Clark being railroaded? I ask you, Tony.
MR. BLANKLEY: Absolutely, railroaded on the Orient Express.
Look, this is a man who the Pentagon doesn't like -- never have, the people in the Pentagon --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Why?
MR. BLANKLEY: Because he's never been the kind of team player -- he's cold, political; he does things his own way. He tries to actually get a job done, as opposed to playing --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: They think he's arrogant?
MR. BLANKLEY: Oh, sure. But anyone --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: They think he's dangerous?
MR. BLANKLEY: Yeah, but anybody who tries to accomplish something is usually considered arrogant. Anyway, the Pentagon doesn't like him much, and then Clinton was angry because he spoke the truth, and with remarkable candor, during the war about what policies needed to be followed and --
MS. HUFFINGTON: No. Come on. Come on.
MR. BLANKLEY: Absolutely.
MS. HUFFINGTON: No, the -- that's not the reason at all. I --
MR. BLANKLEY: No, wait. No, wait. No, wait --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: All right, let Tony finish one more point quickly.
MR. BLANKLEY: And Cohen wanted to get him, and he got him.
MS. HUFFINGTON: No --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, Cohen was saying, in effect, that he wouldn't -- that Clark wouldn't take orders. It was like a MacArthur situation without the military brilliance of MacArthur.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Aw --
MR. BLANKLEY: Oh, he hadn't --
MS. HUFFINGTON: John, the real reason --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want to --
MS. HUFFINGTON: The real reason is that basically people within the Pentagon and the administration are beginning to tell each other and friends -- there were people in Aspen during that fundraising weekend that we were told by the president himself that this war was totally mismanaged, that they were unprepared, they did not expect the mass exodus that happened. They are considering things among themselves. And what happened to Wes Clark is absolutely a response to their own belief about this war.
MR. BLANKLEY: Oh, this is -- this is --
MS. HUFFINGTON: Absolutely -- (inaudible due to cross talk) --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Wait just a minute. Is this --
MR. BLANKLEY: This is anti-Clark disinformation.
MS. HUFFINGTON: Let me just --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, let me -- let me get in here. Do you mean to say that where this burden should fall, which is on Madeleine Albright --
MS. HUFFINGTON: Exactly. It's falling on Wes Clark.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- that Clark is taking the fall for Albright?
MS. HUFFINGTON: The fall. Exactly.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you have thoughts on this?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: I do. I think Clark was absolutely right in his desire to accelerate the military campaign, if the objective was, what the political objective was --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, yeah --
MR. ZUCKERMAN: It was mismanaged back in Washington, and Clark is taking the heat on this --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. You're another military psycho like Clark, you know?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Absolutely.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Going in there and bomb downtown Belgrade --
MS. HUFFINGTON: Can you -- John, can you imagine --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- or bomb the Russians if the Russians impeded a proposed oil embargo. We still haven't heard the real reason --
MR. ZUCKERMAN: I think it -- I think it is widely accepted that we should have accelerated the military -- (inaudible due to cross talk).
MS. CLIFT: I've -- I've got the real reason!
MS. HUFFINGTON: Can you imagine --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Please, please, please.
MS. CLIFT: My turn! My turn! Okay. There was friction there, but Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, who has no brief for the Clinton administration, is a friend of Clark's, says that this was basically routine.
MS. HUFFINGTON: Oh, come on, Eleanor -
MS. CLIFT: It's an offering of two or three months --
MS. CLIFT: Wait a second; let me finish.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let her finish!
MS. CLIFT: What this is about is the way to reward the Air Force by installing General Ralston, and it's a way to give General Ralston absolution for having committed adultery.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No. No, you have --
MS. CLIFT: That's what this is about.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You have all missed the point! You've all missed the point. It's not Ralston. It's not Clark himself. This is an effort by the Clinton administration to tighten the Sino-U.S. relationship. He's paying the price for the bombing of the Chinese embassy. Within 24 hours after he was relieved of -- announced that his relief of command would be early, cut off, who was invited over to China, but the U.S. Secretary of Commerce?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Yeah, but --
MS. HUFFINGTON: But John --
MS. CLIFT: He didn't do the targeting. He didn't do the targeting.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: He's been sacrificed in the interest of the U.S.-Sino rapprochement. True or false?
MS. HUFFINGTON: That is true. And beyond that, if Eleanor was true -- just imagine, Eleanor, if Norman Schwarzkopf had been asked to retire early after the Gulf War. It would never have happened, because the Gulf War was a victory, and what happened there was a defeat. No matter how -- (inaudible due to cross talk) --
MS. CLIFT: I'm sorry, Arianna --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exit: Which is it for General Wesley Clark, NATO supreme allied commander: Sorry to see you go, or good riddance? Arianna?
MS. HUFFINGTON: Good riddance.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor?
MS. CLIFT: A reward to the Air Force for having won the war with air power -- nothing more, nothing less, no conspiracy --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: So, sorry to see you go?
MS. CLIFT: Sayonara. He'll go on to other things.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Oops! There it is.
MS. HUFFINGTON: He's not even getting another military assignment.
MR. BLANKLEY: From the administration's point of view, this is good riddance.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yours?
MR. BLANKLEY: From my point of view, it's too bad. (Laughter.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That's sorry to see you go.
MR. BLANKLEY: Sorry to see you go.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The administration publicly is saying, "Sorry to see you go," and privately they're saying, "Good riddance."
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. Well, where are you?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: I'm sorry to see him go.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You are?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: I am. He didn't deserve this.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, actually, it's good riddance.
Issue three: Political potpourri. Item: Rudy does Little Rock.
MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R-New York City): (From videotape.) I've never lived here. I've never worked here. I've never gone to school here. This is the first time I've been here. (Laughter.) But I guess it would be cool to run for the Senate. I mean, you know -- (laughter, applause).
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Turnabout is fair play. New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani visited Little Rock, Arkansas, this week and was barely able to keep a straight face. Rudy not only raised $40,000 in Hillary's home state for his upcoming campaign for the New York Senate seat, but he also needled the all-but-declared Senate candidate Hillary, mocking her carpetbagger status and, while in Little Rock himself, flying the Arkansas flag over New York City, City Hall.
But on the carpetbagging issue, some say that the mayor has changed his tune. In 1964 Rudy Giuliani wrote a column for his college newspaper, defending then-Senate candidate Robert F. Kennedy. (Quoting from Mr. Giuliani's column in the Manhattan Quadrangle.) "The carpetbagger issue is a truly ridiculous reason for not voting for a man in the year 1964. Let us hope that cosmopolitan New Yorkers can rise above the ridiculous, time-worn provincial attitude that has so disunified our nation."
Question: Giuliani was then a 20-year-old junior at Manhattan College, and a Democrat. Will his college column hurt him, Mort Zuckerman?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: I'm sure, as being somebody now in his 40s and a Republican, he thinks he's learned an awful lot since then. No, I don't think it's going to hurt him. And what's more, his trip to Arkansas helps him, not just because he focuses on the fact that she is, shall we say, new to New York, but also because it's the way that New Yorkers like to see politics played --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: -- that is, a hardball game. And they enjoyed what he did.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: And I think it's really keeping her on the defensive --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Is this --
MR. ZUCKERMAN: -- and she is sinking in the polls on a regular and consistent basis, and this is one of the reasons.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think the way he handled Talk magazine and the (Brooklyn) Navy yard is analogous to what he's doing, in the sense that New Yorkers like -- they like hardball?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Yeah, I think that went in a different direction. There he made more of an issue than he needed. This one, I think, was a legitimate way to play the game.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. Well, I say that --
MS. HUFFINGTON: I think he was right when he was 20, and he's wrong now. Carpetbagging is a time-worn provincial issue.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You know --
MS. HUFFINGTON: It's a joke. That's not the way to take her on. He should take her on on her flip-flops, on the way she moved on Palestine and the Jerusalem --
MR. BLANKLEY: Well, that's to follow. That's going to follow. That's round two.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want to comment on this? And we're talking about the column.
MS. CLIFT: I think Rudy Giuliani as class clown is fun for now. And I think, you know, the column reveals that this is about politics, it's not principle. I wonder if he's noticed on the sports teams in New York they're not all native New Yorkers, and New Yorkers cheer for them.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Everybody has missed the point, and I hope you don't. (Laughter.) And to help you along, every New York pol should be so lucky as to get a column that he wrote 30 years ago praising RFK in the wake of John F. Kennedy's horrible tragedy. Any association with Kennedy that is positive has got to be a plus. He just acquired 50,000 votes from that column. True or false?
MS. CLIFT: (Laughs.)
MR. BLANKLEY: I think the general thrust of your point is reasonable. I don't know whether the numbers are right.
MS. CLIFT: He'll probably lose numbers in the Republican primary.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: At least I know why we all missed that point, John!
MS. CLIFT: Right!
MR. ZUCKERMAN: I don't think that's going to carry much --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You don't think --
MR. ZUCKERMAN: No. No, no, no.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You don't think that the Kennedy --
MS. HUFFINGTON: John, let me remind you --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Don't you think that the Kennedy-ites in New York will appreciate that?
Okay. Item: Gore's whitewater. Vice President Al Gore this week sidelined his primary fight against Bill Bradley for the Democratic presidential nomination and has gone straight to the general election attack against putative Republican nominee George W. Bush. In Texas, at the National Council of La Raza, the nation's largest Hispanic advocacy group, Gore mocked Bush's, quote, unquote, "compassionate conservativism." But even under Gore's sharpened attack, Bush still leads Gore by an average 17 points in opinion polls.
Why can't Gore get ahead? Well, it could be Gore's gaffes. Another one. A New Hampshire photo op a week ago. Gore was at the Connecticut River in Portsmouth, New Hampshire to announce federal funding for that waterway and paddle a canoe down the river. Just one problem -- no water. The river is drought-stricken. So river officials released 97 million gallons of water into the river to keep the veep afloat.
Environmentalists berated Gore for this huge waste of water. Officials claimed they were going to release the water anyway, but advanced the time to accommodate Gore. True or not, Gore compounded the gaffe by announcing $800,000 in environmental grants for the river. Just one flaw in Gore's proclamation; the money would be there anyway. The funding is an appropriation that is renewed annually and automatically.
Question: What is the underlying cause of Gore's campaign woes?
MS. HUFFINGTON: The underlying cause that he has no central message. He's running a campaign that would have been fine in '96 but wrong in 2000. And he cannot basically take on compassionate conservatism because he has no alternative.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor?
MS. CLIFT: He's an easy figure to make fun of, his sort of parson-like rectitude and the ramrod posture, even in a kayak. But when the debates start and when people start caring about issues, this is a man who has a position on virtually every matter of public policy. Once he figures out an overarching theme to tie those things together --
MS. HUFFINGTON: Yeah, that comes first. But the fact is --
MS. CLIFT: -- he is going to do better. And Republicans underestimate him at their peril.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, what do you think is his underlying problem?
MR. BLANKLEY: Well, I think -- basically, it's his poor judgment in the way he puts together his team and executes.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Ah.
MR. BLANKLEY: And I think it's increasingly becoming a flaw that is not part of a shakedown crew's problem but is innate to the chemistry of the way he organizes his campaign.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think he should shake up his campaign crew the way Reagan did, in 1980, when he got rid of John Sears?
MR. BLANKLEY: I think he needs less, not more, people. He has hired too many -- four pollsters already, too many high-powered people going at each other's throats.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, clearly, there is too much contrivance in the campaign.
MR. BLANKLEY (?): Yes --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: This putting of water in, even if it was legit --
MS. CLIFT: Well, they didn't know about it.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- that they were going to put it anyway.
MS. CLIFT: They didn't know about that.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: He has not broken -- he has not broken through --
MR. ZUCKERMAN: He has not broken -- he has not broken through --
MS. CLIFT: They didn't; they didn't know about that.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: -- to the American people as a personality. He doesn't connect yet with the American people. He hasn't found out --
MS. CLIFT: Yes.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: But why don't --
MR. ZUCKERMAN: These are all just symptoms of that basic problem.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You know, Gore's strong suit is intellectual honesty, when he is on that track. At least he is honest to his own perception, and he loves to debate.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Yes. Right. Right.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Why doesn't he get back to intellectual honesty and get rid of the contrivance? (Laughter.) He is bluffing the way Clinton does. He is involved in these little semi-lies the way Clinton used to be. Did Clinton corrupt him? Okay.
Item: Clinton's legacy.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: (From videotape.) I have never had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. I have never had an affair with her.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: President Bill Clinton will pay over $90,000 for lies like this one in his sworn Paula Jones deposition. U.S. District Judge Susan Webber Wright held Clinton in contempt of court last April and imposed the fine this week. "Sanctions are being imposed," pronounced Judge Wright, "to deter others who might consider emulating the president's misconduct."
Question: Is this censure adequate for President Clinton? I ask you, Eleanor Clift.
MS. CLIFT: It's adequate, and it's appropriate. And this is where this should have been dealt with from the beginning, in the court of law and not taken into the Congress.
And I would also like to point out another appropriate sanction, and that is the indictment this week of Linda Tripp for illegally recording a friend. And it was those recordings, exposing a private affair that had been over, that launched --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Mm-hmm. (In agreement.)
MS. CLIFT: -- this whole ridiculous Monica Lewinsky affair that paralyzed the nation for a year.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, by those rabid Democratic prosecutors over in Maryland.
MR. BLANKLEY: Correct. Yeah. Look, this decision by Wright comes about a year too late. She should have made this decision when it was timely. She could have made it at any point last year, when the Congress and the public would then have had a chance to judge it.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think this was a pathetic effort to redeem her reputation; too late? Do you share that view?
MR. ZUCKERMAN: No, I don't. But I do think it was appropriate, and it should have been done. And it -- will be on the big part of his legacy.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Two seconds.
MS. HUFFINGTON: It works out at about five cents per lie.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Five cents a lie? Hey, he got off pretty well.
We'll be right back with predictions.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay, predictions.
MS. HUFFINGTON: There will be more conservative defections from the Republican Party, more progressive defections from the Democratic Party; the beginning of a major realignment in American politics.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor Clift?
MS. CLIFT: If Hillary Clinton does not run for the Senate -- and that's a big "if" -- Andrew Cuomo will.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What? If Andrew Cuomo?
MS. CLIFT: I said if Hillary doesn't, Andrew Cuomo will.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Ah.
MR. BLANKLEY: There's some trouble brewing in the House Republican leadership. A member of the leadership has gone to Speaker Hastert and asked him to rein in Tom DeLay, who's overreaching, from some people's point of view. This will brew in the next few months.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: Richard Butler, the Australian ambassador who was the head of UNSCOM to control weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, was opposed primarily by Russia in his efforts. And he is going to come out with an article that will prove that Primakov, the prime minister of Russia, took $1,400,000 personally from Saddam Hussein.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: But Butler's held in low regard by his fellow Australians.
In Kosovo, NATO will narrowly avert a military confrontation with Russian forces. NATO will back down.
®FC¯END REGULAR SEGMENT
®FL¯ PBS SEGMENT
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue four: "Woodshock" '99.
(Song playing on tape, "Teach Your Children" by Crosby, Stills and Nash. Words: "Teach your children well, their fathers' hell did slowly go by.")
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: So much for "teaching your children well." Peace and love went up in flames in upstate New York this past weekend. That's when concert-goers closed out the three-day, 30th anniversary Woodstock Festival by going berserk. Rampaging youths looted vending stands and trucks, torched trailers and tents, and fueled already giant bonfires with nearby wood and debris. Five hundred riot police were called in to restore order.
MR. : (From videotape.) We've called for reinforcements from the state police, additional reinforcements.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: An estimated 250,000 rock fans attended the event, held at an old Air Force base. Music lyrics, 90-degree weather, drugs and alcohol are all being singled out as culprits that lit the riot's spark. Some say it was also price gauging.
MS. : (From videotape.) They have a glaring sun there, 90 degrees, no place for refuge, really, but a very hot, sticky tent. Four dollars for a bottle of water. Twelve dollars for a small pizza. And this absolutely provoked these kids to do this.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: As crews cleaned up the mountain of post-concert debris, the awful statistics rolled in. Three concert-related deaths. Four or more rapes. Crisis intervention workers say they witnessed many more. Twelve hundred people treated at on-site medical facilities and a nearby hospital. Forty-four arrests.
Question: Is this a case of a few bad apples spoiling the barrel?
I ask you, Mort Zuckerman.
MR. ZUCKERMAN: No, I don't think it is. But I also do think that this is misrepresentative; you're going to extend it too far. Because if you look at the younger generation in this country, I still think it's the best generation we've ever had in this country.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Was it a bad concept, that is the commercialization of Woodstock?
MS. HUFFINGTON: I think it was a bad concept. And the price gouging was significant. It does not excuse what happened. But you had them confiscating the attendees' water and then charging four dollars a bottle. And then on top of it, at the end of it, two-day --
MS. CLIFT: Anybody who knows anything about crowd control would know that if you put 250,000 people under a hot sun for three days, and you put heavy metal bands before them playing music that encourages animalistic --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: At the first Woodstock --
MS. CLIFT: The promoters --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Wait a minute! Wait a minute!
MR. BLANKLEY: Women were raped and men were watching it, they weren't intervening.
MS. CLIFT: Excuse me! It was a small number of people who rampaged. And secondly, the promoters bear some responsibility.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Now, also at the first Woodstock there was heavy rain, there were people standing around, there was long lines for food, but they were respectable.
MS. CLIFT: They had a cause.
MR. BLANKLEY: Yeah, this is a case where it wasn't just the few who were raping, it was the many who were watching the rape and letting it go on. It's a disgrace.
MS. CLIFT: The original Woodstock had a cause. This was all about making money and exploitation.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: These people are different, and we ought to face that and analyze the cultural difference between the two Woodstocks.
MS. CLIFT: They're different in a lot of -- oh. Young people today are different, but they're different in a lot of good ways too.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Very different and very worrisome.
MS. CLIFT: I'm not going to condemn today's young people based on that! (Laughs.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Maybe nihilistic.